So, all the comfortable, sheltered Canadians who are willing to embrace torture and the summary execution of prisoners, out of anger over the killing of Canadian soldiers whom they don't know personally,* think that they're justified because our enemies are "savages."
Supposedly, the people of Afghanistan, having lived through three decades of almost constant warfare, and through grinding poverty under brutal dictatorships, ... if any of these people turn out to be cruel killers, well there's no excuse for that.
We can embrace torture and killing at the drop of a hat while still holding on to the claim that we're "civilized." But if people living under far more brutal conditions do this, they're monsters whose extermination is self-evidently required.
* I'll discount the fantasy that these Canadians are also outraged at the overall cruelty and oppressiveness of the enemy towards its own people. Were that the case, they'd have to call for the torture and summary execution of US soldiers in Iraq, Northern Alliance Warlords, death squads in Latin America, and etc.
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"* I'll discount the fantasy that these Canadians are also outraged at the overall cruelty and oppressiveness of the enemy towards its own people. Were that the case, they'd have to call for the torture and summary execution of US soldiers in Iraq, Northern Alliance Warlords, death squads in Latin America, and etc."
How do you equate the cruelty of the enemy to its own people to U.S. soldiers in Iraq? You must have banged your head. Do you know what "non sequitur" means?
These people must be outraged because of the deaths of Canadian soldiers.
If they were outraged by the cruel treatment of people they don't know, from countries they've never seen, and they wish torture and death upon the perpetrators, then it would logically follow that the barbarism of the US in Iraq, and the barbarism of US-trained death squads in South and Central America must also make these outraged Canadians wish torture and death upon the US soldiers and US-backed death squads in these other countries that these outraged Canadians have never been to, against people whome they've never met.
So, their outrage must be based on the fact that the Taliban have killed Canadian soldiers.
Aside from your problem with my asterisk point, ... what are your thoughts about the overall argument of the post?
It'd really help if you people would bother to adapt a nickname or something, so that i can tell you apart.
"roundhead" used to start every comment by calling me "fuckhead," but then somebody else got in on that action and I don't know who is who anymore. :(
You are a fucking idiot and a liar. You have no desire for discourse on this subject if you ar deliberatly posting this inflamatory strawman arguement.
Can you put any more words in mouths? I doubt it.
Reason
PS feel free to play in traffic today.
Reason,
What's your basis for such an extreme statement.
U.S. soldiers took trophy photos of Iraqis, carloads of families shot to ribbons at check-points.
They uploaded these pictures to the porn site "nowthatsfuckedup.com" with "humourous" titles, so that they could obtain wanking material in return.
It'd be rare to hear the Canadians calling for the torture or execution of Afghan prisoners to also call for the same treatment to those US soldiers.
In all honesty "Reason" you really don't have much to offer in the way of debate for all your screeching about my refusal to debate, and how I don't have a fucking clue about anything.
Any future meaningless posts from you will be deleted. If you've got an actual argument, please provide it. Otherwise, fuck off.
Is your definition of "barbarism" by U.S. soldiers in Iraq the taking of trophy photos? Surely if you are willing to excuse the existence of "cruel killers" in the Afghani population because of their exposure to warfare, you can find your way to cut some slack to American soldiers photographing the bodies of those who moments before were trying to kill them. The act is distasteful to our sensibilities, to be sure, but it hardly constitutes barbarism. As for the "carloads of families shot to ribbons at check-points", you seem to imply that incidents like these are intentional. Has there been an instance of such a thing where the occupants of the car approached at normal speed, stopped when instructed, and then were shot "to ribbons", as you put it? I have not heard of one.
As for the main thrust of your post, Canada has a small force in Afghanistan, too small to deal with the care of prisoners. So, what are the options available: take no prisoners, or hand them over to their countrymen. I am reasonably confident that you do not wish to see Canadian soldiers killing all enemy combatants with whom they come into contact. All we can do is express our wishes that prisoners not be abused. The situation is no different than any other dealing we have with an unsavoury regime: China, Cuba, Sudan, all of these places commit grievous human rights violations and there is no practical action we can take to force them to stop.
None of this makes the fact of torture easier to accept.
"Surely if you are willing to excuse the existence of "cruel killers" in the Afghani population because of their exposure to warfare, you can find your way to cut some slack to American soldiers photographing the bodies of those who moments before were trying to kill them."
That's just it gram. I don't endorse the summary execution or torture of anyone. I'm pretty sympathetic to the idea that people's civility will break down under the stresses of war.
That's why I'm so opposed to getting into wars in the first place.
Also, the rules of war, the rules of humanity, were created to prevent wars from descending into absolutely disgusting, sickening sadism and genocide. To the extent that we dismiss these laws, we get closer to losing our humanity.
Re: the significance of the photographs, ... that was just one example of the behaviour of the US troops in Iraq. It sticks in my craw because I saw those pictures.
Let me put it to you this way: Imagine a female family member. The Taliban blows her up along with several other people.
or
A US helicopter gunship blasts at the building she's in, and her leg is blasted off and she dies of shock. She's lying in such a way that her dress has been raised and her groin area is exposed. A US soldier takes her picture and uploads it to a porno site with the caption: "Nice puss, bad leg." Then he browses around the rest of the site and beats off.
For some reason, that behaviour makes me sick.
But I'm not the one calling for the torture and murder of anyone. It's Canadians who hate the Taliban, but who can't raise the same level of hatred for equally cruel Americans.
It's called hypocrisy.
"As for the "carloads of families shot to ribbons at check-points", you seem to imply that incidents like these are intentional. "
I think the majority of times the US soldiers don't really give a shit. It's "shoot first, ask questions later."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45313-2004Dec7.html
"Canada has a small force in Afghanistan, too small to deal with the care of prisoners. So, what are the options available: take no prisoners, or hand them over to their countrymen. "
Or, we can refrain from putting our soldiers in such a ridiculous situation. Simple, no?
"The situation is no different than any other dealing we have with an unsavoury regime: China, Cuba, Sudan, all of these places commit grievous human rights violations and there is no practical action we can take to force them to stop."
Well, actually there's a HUGE difference. We're not arresting Cubans and turning them over to Castro. We're not arresting Falun Gong adherents in China and turning them over to the Communists. But we ARE fighting the Taliban (some of whom are ordinary farmers fighting back against a brutal and corrupt government) and turning our prisoners over to torturers.
We should not be there doing that.
As per, baiting. This is how the left respects "free speech" and engages in "discussion". Empty accusation, strawmen, placing words in another's mouth.
Someday you might actually grow up. But I doubt it. Keep on making those broad generalisations, you got lots of cheerleaders to back you up. Read your own diatribes if you are wondering why I have such loathing for you. You attribute feelings to me which I do not (or did not) have (though I find myself thinking that you spending five mins with a hard core Talib would be a good thing for you, assuming you survive).
I'll let that stupid, pointless comment of yours stay up, ... seems to me it's emblematic of your "debating" style.
Nothing.
I've made several points. If you had any way to dispute them, you would have done so by now.
Hahaha, way to prove a point and true to form.
Since the almighty thwap is pissy. I did make points, which, as you can see, were I am guessing effective.
Let me know when you want to make fact based points as opposed to lefty fear-mongering.
Oh, and it would be really really nice if you stop guessing at what folks like me are thinking, wanting, and desiring.
Okay shithead,
What "desires" have I attributed to you?
I deleted your post because all you did was make yet another empty generalization.
To avoid that, I will give you this opportunity to say something specific. What "desires" do I unfairly attribute to you?
"But I'm not the one calling for the torture and murder of anyone. It's Canadians who hate the Taliban, but who can't raise the same level of hatred for equally cruel Americans."
I don't hate Afghans, which is the mistake you are making. I work side by side with real Afghans on a daily basis currently. I do not hate all Taliban either. Most are just poor saps who fight for the Taliban because the Taliban hold some sway over them (it is not uncommon for real Taliban to kidnap and hold family members of fighting aged men to encourage them to fight).
And I along with the vast majority of Canadian soldiers loath American practices. I do not have to nod my head in quiet agreement everytime you paint me with that brush, and if you think I will take such a grand offensive statement quietly, you are saddly mistaken.
Of course, you have made several other sweeping generalisations directed at the CF, and have engaged in baiting here and other places on so many occasions now that it is hard to keep track of.
I suppose ignorance is an excuse in your mind. As you don't really see your words as being directed at soldiers who might stumble into them, as you would likely sooner spit on us then actually talk to us.
Reason
Well, see, here's the thing "Reason."
It's not all about you.
That "quick thought for the day" was for "comfortable" [ie. safe on the homefront] Canadians, who are moved to murderous rage about Taliban atrocities, but seem able to explain away US atrocities.
These comfortable people feel that their own barbaric attitude is justifiable, but the cruelty and callousness of an Afghan Taliban fighter, perhaps a young man who has known nothing but warfare, death and cruelty, is a "monster" who must be exterminated.
I don't deny or belittle the monstrous acts of the Taliban or many of the US soldiery in Iraq. I don't call for the summary execution or torture of all concerned on either side either.
I have no idea why you chose to personalize this.
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