Thursday, July 10, 2014

Reply to LALI

At first I thought that I'd ignore it. (Which seemed to be LALI's request anyway.) I thought I'd write about something else. But it all seemed so pointless to have a blog with a comments section and to not .... oh well.

In the comments section of the last post there's some back and forth between me and the commentator I call "LALI." You can read the rest if you want, but suffice to say that after a detailed comment from LALI I wrote:

There's too much for me to go at in that comment. I'll limit myself to two points:

1. Yes, Afghanistan is over for us. But for the ELEVEN YEARS we were involved, the goddamned left had zero impact for all of our "rallying" and "actions."

2. harper might be through, but it will be because of widespread disillusionment with his own corruption, incompetence and the unpopularity of his policies.

Which means, we were pretty much useless in bringing about his expected political demise.

Which has been my point this whole time



 LALI replied with the following:

Don't think you have to "go at" my opinion or anything else, how is that helpful? To you, me, or the others here?

1) So?

2) Correct.

In conclusion;

I always knew they'd be 'given enough rope' someday.

Believe it or not thwap-
there are more powerful forces
in this universe than you.

Or me.

So as Dana says so well- enjoy friends, family, work, whatever- and most importantly, to this Liberal- have FUN!! Or change your
own life 'til ya do. That much power, we do have. And that's why people become frustrated with you-
you seem to have stopped looking for change, growth and fun which is in our power. Don't do that,
anyone. Never stop looking.

And how does encouraging others matter?
WTF thwap, you're not seriously asking that question, right??

So, here goes ....
Don't think you have to "go at" my opinion or anything else, how is that helpful? To you, me, or the others here?

I don't know. I thought it was called "having a conversation." I thought that was the point of people with opposing viewpoints speaking to each other. So I guess the "help" part would have been to try to clarify positions, establish bases of disagreements, attempt to correct errors, strengthen analysis. But if speaking at people and past them is what works best, who am I to disagree?
1) So?
SO???? Eleven years of failure; eleven years of zero impact, on one of the most important issues of the past decade, and all you can think to say is "So?" Our government violated international human rights law, was guilty of torture, abused our parliamentary system to successfully cover it up, wasted billions and billions of our dollars, killed, maimed and wounded thousands of Canadian soldiers, killed and traumatized untold thousands of Afghans, all to prop-up a corrupt, unelected, narco-terrorist government of thieves and pedophiles and you say "So?"??????
2) Correct.

In conclusion;

I always knew they'd be 'given enough rope' someday.


I don't know how to make it any clearer: If we TRY to get rid of someone (especially a menace like stephen harper) and we're unable to do it when given 8 years to do so, and WORSE we allow ourselves to be abused by him and our country's democratic culture to visibly deteriorate, that means we've failed. Failed utterly. Failed completely.











When the Soviet Union imploded, it didn't vindicate the USA's economic model. harper's implosion won't vindicate our tactics and our methods. As I said, I can't state this any more clearer than that.
Believe it or not thwap-
there are more powerful forces
in this universe than you.
I see. But where in the fucking name of christ did I ever say that I was the most powerful force in this universe? What was the point of that shit?
Or me.
Again, I have no idea what you're fucking talking about.
So as Dana says so well- enjoy friends, family, work, whatever- and most importantly, to this Liberal- have FUN!! 
You left out the part about how Dana says we're all doomed because we're all too stupid and/or incapable to react to our self-inflicted crises properly. And, I don't think he said to have fun anyway, but to try to enjoy our loved ones' company before the deluge.
Or change your
own life 'til ya do. 
If only I knew that I've been living my life wrong and that changing it so that I can have fun, fun, fun, was the way to go!
That much power, we do have. 
Sure. My current employment situation is entirely my problem, my fault, and totally within my power to change.(BTW: I realize that having a negative attitude will likely produce less in the way of positive results than a positive attitude. That's what we all call a "no-brainer." But to say that we have within ourselves the power to make our lives better is a lie. If circumstances cause you to suffer some crippling loss or tragedy, it will have nothing to do with the power of positive thinking. Bad shit doesn't go away just because you don't want to think about it.)
And that's why people become frustrated with you-
you seem to have stopped looking for change, growth and fun which is in our power. Don't do that,
anyone. Never stop looking.
No. People are frustrated with me because I attack their breezy, empty-headed delusions about how it's all going to be okay and that we've just gotta keep doing what we've always been doing, because that's the way to victory. The facts that I bring showing how things have gotten worse, our rights are crumbling, inequality is increasing, democracy is dying, wars are raging, the environment is being ravaged, ... and that our blogging, our petitioning, our rallies, our voting, have all failed to halt this process and will continue to fail to halt this process, ... well, they can all be disregarded.


That's it. Disregarded.

They can't, apparently, be successfully argued against, because if that were the case I'd have heard something coherent by now. The same way that the right-wing trolls never managed to humiliate me by showing me what a colossal idiot I am; they would have loved to do that but they couldn't so instead they resorted to puerile insults and death threats. Obviously, progressives aren't sending me death threats. They're just accusing me of shitting all over people I disagree with (which I supposedly do simply for the sake of it), of being negative for no reason (as opposed to all the facts and analysis that accompanies my negativity), of frightening people about ecological catastrophe and forgetting about intrinsic values (because that essay was sort of about negativity).
And how does encouraging others matter?
WTF thwap, you're not seriously asking that question, right??
No. I wasn't seriously asking that question. I never asked that question at all. You're thinking about what maybe somebody else said, somewhere else, about something else.

23 comments:

Anonymous said...

Just touching back on Afghanistan, here is a better indicator as to what we were lending our soldiers' blood, sweat and tears for. It was never about exporting democracy. http://tribune.com.pk/story/731317/tapi-pipeline-officials-to-finalise-contract-award-in-ashgabat-next-week/

liberalandlovingit said...

I only ever said any of the things I said to you, because I like you. I care. I value your opinion. I want a conversation with you. (Not a lecture-sermon.) I know that I'm vague and sometimes out-right incoherent, thwap. I'm trying to learn how to say what I mean in a thoughtful, considerate, assertive way. (I have yet to determine if my 'Edge' is caffiene-induced or the real' me. At this point in my life, it doesn't matter too much though- it keeps people where I want them- away from me.) That's why I come to learn from you and the others. But when we disagree should I be made to feel humiliated because I don't have the education to frame my arguments and points, just right?
Our 'definitions' are just that-
ours, not to be forced on others or held out as THE only way.
Thanks for being here, thwap. Even though my head often hurts when I leave here, and you make my mind WORK...I always come back. You're that interesting.

thwap said...

Well, I wondered how you'd respond to that.

And I'm sorry that it had to come out so harsh, but I guess that's an indication of how infuriating I find the situation that I'm in.

I'm picturing a small band of poor people, wearing rags and armed with nothing but sharpened sticks. They're hiding in a swamp from an army of well armed soldiers. They're planning their next foray out to meet their oppressors and it's just the same pathetic unorganized charge.

One member of the band says that they should re-think their tactics, and avoid a useless slaughter.

Some others say that it's better to do something, anything, rather than nothing. And others are saying to stop being so negative and never lose faith in final victory.

That's how I see it.

liberalandlovingit said...

I see those poor, who are me- my people- as THE real defenders.

Those sticks are pencils and all the guns on earth can't make the words go away. Words matter. The right word is invaluable.

True leaders-
People will go to the wall for the man or woman
who speaks to and inspires them to achieve SOMETHING MORE JUST.
MLK. Ghandi. T. Douglas. Carter. Hilary. The Kennedy's.
Great Union leaders
who each wanted the BEST for ALL the people they represented. It's
a calling. Not a con. To have the ability to converse with and speak for people from across the
spectrum of humanity- what a gift.
I'm damn grateful for those humble servants who
are willing to stand their liberal ground and assert that it does, indeed, take a village to raise a child.

thwap said...

There are two big differences between you and I.

1. You're much more of a romantic than I am.

2. You're a liberal. I'm not.

I think it's very easy for some systems to crush the bleeding hearts and artists. All the dreamers in Latin America, who were tortured and murdered into silence over the decades. Occasionally systems are defeated. How often this has been brought about by the words of dreamers, I can't say. Sometimes what brings these systems down is their own failure and collapse (which hardly ever benefits the dreamers) and sometimes it's the due to the armed might of their imperialist scum-bag rivals.

Even today, the US elites target and harass and murder in Venezuela to try to destroy the Chavez revolution and return that country to inequality and injustice and hopelessness.

Which brings me to your liberalism. It's insane psychotic scum-bags like Hillary Clinton, and, much more directly, Barack Obama who continue to pursue these inhuman policies. The blood spilled in Honduras and Colombia and Venezuela is directly on his hands.

That piece-of-shit exists only to hand over the money and the lives of his fellow countrymen to his Wall Street masters.

If you want to find an embrace of liberalism, you won't find it here.

But I want to take up something: You say that you are not always articulate. Very well then. I would like you to try to express what you were trying to say when you typed "So?" as a response to Canadian leftists' 11 years of failure to impact our governments' policies in Afghanistan.

Can you explain that?

Do you believe that what our governments did to that country (and to this country) was unimportant?

Do you believe that our lack of influence was unimportant?

liberalandlovingit said...

Homework! See you in a few days,
when I will try to explain that. There were a lot of words in my mind when I wrote that, but all I could manage was "so?". Sorry.

The whole thing was entirely avoidable, and a massive waste of humanity, and I don't care how many G.D'd schools were built and wells were dug at the end of a fucking weapon. When the fuck does the re-building of Palestine's homes and schools and offices and government services and hospitals and libraries and police stations, oh i forgot- they're not allowed to have an armed fucking police force so they use rocks and mortars that rarely connect the way the Israeli Machine-American Made-Canadian backed, do; when does that re-building occur? Let's see. I know. Let's train Afghani men to police and soldier their own country and leave the HOMELESS NATIONLESS Palestinians to their rocks and rubble. Why is this so??

see ya, thwap. take care.

liberalandlovingit said...

What is romantic about wanting to feed, clothe and shelter all of us? And aiming to protect individual liberty? It's a hard slog. We're vastly out-numbered by the money-makers and their fire-power. We die. We live as if we may as well be dead. Some of us, a few, aim for it. The greatest thing I've discovered about having nothing left to lose? There's nothing left to lose. I got freedom. To say whatever I need, sit wherever I want, and chose exactly who I admit into my personal space. People don't like that. I fit in nowhere. I speak, yell, and roar; for as many people as I can. My voice is something. I've startled myself a few times out there in the 'hood- it got loud. I go to the wall for my people. The others don't like it. Too bad.

Sorry if I rambled.

If you do not consider yourself to be dictionary-defined liberal in your thoughts, philosophies, and actions, may i ask what you do consider yourself to be? Socialist? Just curious.

thwap said...

It is romantic to believe that the power of words can defeat the power of weapons, just because.

I'm a libertarian socialist. I sympathize with much of the anarchist position, ... but I think they don't think enough about the practicalities of how society functions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Susan_Brown

liberalandlovingit said...

"Just because" doesn't quite cut it, for me. That's ok though.

liberalandlovingit said...

Why would you target Hillary
(go HilDog!), out of the list of leaders I submitted?
Each have their flaws. Misjudgements. Imperfections.

Words, scribes and minstrels;
actors- CHANGE poeple's minds.
Without fire-power.

Why do we arm every two-bit
tin-pot government in the world, for the Almighty Dollar- but we cannot face or accept the fact that Palestinians
HAVE AN INALIENABLE RIGHT
TO DEFEND THEMSELVES?

I did some study years ago, of the methodical and meticulous ways
Israel has employed to dehumanize the people of Palestine from the very get-go.
(It's a sickening look into the depths to which mankind goes to destroy a nation. Genocidal?
In many ways. Cold, calculated, scientific ways.
Locally; nationally; and internationally.
The Israeli's know that if they can call the whole nation of Palestinians- "Terrorists"; loud enough and long enough, big-lie style...and just enough people
in US/Canada/UK buy it...well, they win. Boo yah.
It's sick. Even the way they train their dogs is messed up. I'm sorry, but
I have to say this-I think God and I have talked about this subject long enough and deeply enough for me to assert that this is not the way to determine borders.
And where is Britain in all of this? They handed the keys over to Israel as if it was their decision alone. Well, fuck that.
Colonialist Bastards.

liberalandlovingit said...

And the radio thing?
I was thinking more along the lines of a 24/6ish type of affair on the youtube.
I, like Scotian, feel more confident and comfortable speaking face to face with people.
Although...I'm not certain, but I may be detecting a hint of improvement in my feeling toward this type of communication.

thwap said...

Why go after Hillary Clinton?

She voted for the invasion of Iraq. There was no excuse for that. bush II's whole WMD circus was an obvious lie that tens of millions of ordinary people saw through immediately.

Hillary supported Israel's carpet-bombing of Lebanon and said the US would justified doing the same thing to us if terrorists here lobbed missiles across the border.

Hillary pointedly rejected single-payer when she was in charge of her husband's health-care reform process.

She`S (SOMETHING'S wrong with my computer keyboard temporarily) just the same sort of murderous corporate imperialist/profits before people/corrupt US Democratic Party hack, with all the blood and stupidity that that entails.

liberalandlovingit said...

I agree with your points to a certain degree.
Diplomacy is not your strong suit thwap, and that's ok.
Do you have any comment on the rest of what I wrote or is this place just about LIB-bashing for the most part?

I wish I could see your face when you read some of my stuff.
'Apoplectic'...comes to mind!

thwap said...

And the radio thing?
I was thinking more along the lines of a 24/6ish type of affair on the youtube.
I, like Scotian, feel more confident and comfortable speaking face to face with people.
Although...I'm not certain, but I may be detecting a hint of improvement in my feeling toward this type of communication.


How would that work? How would it be done?

thwap said...

Is this place about Liberal-bashing for the most part?

Of course not. You know that to be true. Jesus Christ! I just told Scotian in a reply that I'll work for my local Liberal candidate.

This place is about the truth as I see it. And in the final analysis, Liberal liberalism is too flawed, compromised, elitist and murderous, to be bothered with.

My comments on the rest of what you wrote? About Israel and the Palestinians? Is that it? I agree with it I suppose. For all the good that will do.

liberalandlovingit said...

Sorry, I did just read that but as I age my memory suffers. I suppose I'm too defensive as I see it as one of the few options we have and there is scientific evidence in now, proving John Stuart Mill's assertion on stupid/Conservatism, and our brains reaaly ARE different! (I'm glad to hear that you're helping the candidate there.)

Youtube?
Well if RoFo & DoFo can slap something together, we could.
Maybe we could crowd-fund for
VIA RAIL or bus-fare, unless you have wheels.
I might panic at the last moment though, so it's probably not gonna fly...
A pod-cast though, could work right? From separate places? The Woodshed did some, I recall.
Thanks for your answers. Are you always so...grim? ;)

thwap said...

Google "thwap and ephemeral hit the town."

tell me what you find.

liberalandlovingit said...

No. I'm scared to.

liberalandlovingit said...

Ok, I did. You're funny.

And too good a writer for me to be bothering you, here.

Especially knowing that you "hate Christians"....

thwap said...

1. It's possible that I wrote that I "hate" Christians. But whether I did or not write such a thing, if I did, it was for effect.

I have a good friend who is a very devout Christian and who is an excellent human being who I respect and admire.

2. How is that stuff "good writing"? It's "writing" for sure. But "good writing"? No idea. It is what it is.

liberalandlovingit said...

1. It was effective.

2. Did you study to be a writer? Or it happened by chance?.

3. A glimpse into a writer's personal life is always illuminating, no?

thwap said...

I studied art, animation and history.

I minored in drinking.

liberalandlovingit said...

Which school?

I made my own; school, that is.
I decided (or was called?) to learn certain subjects, which I blindly went into, got knocked around, you know, and all the while I had made and was reading my own 'list' of classics that I thought were important and also because so many had become my favourites.
I was reading Catch-22, The Naked And The Dead, and From Here To Eternity, before I quit institutional learning at 16.
Those were the kind of books at home, and our grandparents house.

Henry Miller? Yup. Too young, but oh well.
What's done is done.
I read some biographical work on him and his fellow writers, when I was older.

I'm glad to hear about your friend. I know you're in good hands! ;)