Doesn't Israel Have a Right to Defend Itself?

What would you do if terrorists were firing missiles at your people? No country in the world would tolerate that!

Goodness gracious me! Who is firing missiles at you?

Hamas! They've sworn themselves to our destruction! It's in their Charter!

Why that's awful! Are they capable of destroying you?

Happily, no. They're really just a nuisance. A deadly nuisance if you will.

So, these people, who you could easily smash, just fire rockets at you for no reason?

Well, ... it's complicated. But we could smash them. Only we don't. We show forbearance and, with typical Arab ingratitude they respond to our mercy with continued aggression.

Truly, you are a saintly and beautiful people. You don't even defend yourselves? You certainly have that right.

Well, we do defend ourselves. We've blockaded them. We impose curfews on them. We occasionally attack them.

In retaliation for their attacks right?

But of course!

Well, I must say, your position is more than justified.

Thank you.

I just have a few observations to share with you.

Go ahead.

I saw this graphic the other day. It provides a map on Israel's expansionism over the past several decades.

So! You're an anti-Semite!

I wonder if you could tell me how the expansion since 1967 has been achieved? Do Israelis doff their caps and approach sturdy Palestinian farmers and offer them a good price for their lands? Do they then seal the bargain over a cup of tea followed by a friendly handshake, whereupon the Palestinian rents an apartment or buys a condo in an Israeli city or wanders over the border with pockets full of coins to buy land in a neighbouring country?

Why don't you skip straight to the reference to Shylock and get it over with?

Or does the process go more like this?

Since 1967, the Mission’s report notes, Israeli governments have openly led, directly participated in, and had full control of the planning, construction, development, consolidation and encouragement of settlements.
“In compliance with Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, Israel must cease all settlement activities without preconditions,” said Christine Chanet, chair of the three-member inquiry.
Israel must “immediately initiate a process of withdrawal of all settlers from the OPT,” the Mission adds, as well as ensure “adequate, effective and prompt remedy” to all Palestinian victims for the harm suffered as a consequence of human rights violations resulting from the settlements.
The report states that settlements are established and developed for the exclusive benefit of Israeli Jews. They are maintained and advanced through a system of total segregation between the settlers and the rest of the population living in the OPT.
This system of segregation is supported and facilitated by strict military and law enforcement control to the detriment of the rights of the Palestinian population, it adds.
“We are today calling on the Government of Israel to ensure full accountability for all violations, put an end to the policy of impunity and to ensure justice for all victims,” said Asma Jahangir, another member of the Mission.
The report states that Israel is committing serious breaches of its obligations under the right to self-determination and under humanitarian law.
“The magnitude of violations relating to Israel’s policies of dispossessions, evictions, demolitions and displacements from land shows the widespread nature of these breaches of human rights. The motivation behind violence and intimidation against the Palestinians and their properties is to drive the local populations away from their lands, allowing the settlements to expand,” said another member, Unity Dow.
The report, which will be formally presented to the Council on 18 March, states that private entities have also enabled, facilitated and profited from the construction of the settlements – both directly and indirectly.
Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon has taken note of the report, according to his spokesperson, who said Mr. Ban has repeatedly made his views on Israeli settlements clear. “All settlement activity in the occupied Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem, is illegal under international law,” the spokesperson said in a note issued to the press.

The UN is a vile nest of anti-Semites and totalitarian hypocrites!

Yes. Of course. And, obviously, Bishop Desmond Tutu is a racist of the worst kind. And Haaretz is, I suppose the newsletter of some die-hard, neo-Nazi skin-head group or something?

"I am especially urging the Assembly to adopt the overture naming Israel as an apartheid state through its domestic policies and maintenance of the occupation, and the overture calling for divestment of certain companies that contribute to the occupation of the Palestinian people," Tutu wrote in an article published in Huffington Post.
"The sustainability of Israel as a homeland for the Jewish people has always been dependent on its ability to deliver justice to the Palestinians," Tutu wrote. "I know firsthand that Israel has created an apartheid reality within its borders and through its occupation. The parallels to my own beloved South Africa are painfully stark indeed."

Ah yes! How convenient for you that Bishop Tutu has allowed himself to be deluded about the truth about Israel!

Perhaps. It might also be the case that he's holding a grudge from when Israel was one of the most loyal allies to the detestable apartheid regime during the international campaign of sanctions that eventually brought about its demise.  

Yes. Of course! We're the Devil incarnate! You're just waiting to say that aren't you? It was all that South African gold we couldn't wait to get our hands on it!

I can't recall at this moment, the reasons for Israel's loyalty to the rogue state of apartheid South Africa. It was all of a peace with the loyalty showed to ostracized and abandoned Taiwan at the time. But that's neither here nor there. What we're talking about now is justifications for mass-murder.

Those deaths are entirely the fault of Hamas! Hamas stores weapons under the roofs of civilian homes. Their so-called "fighters" take shelter among civilians!

So, when someone takes hostages, the forces of the state are under no obligation to worry about civilian casualties? If a gunman hides behind a child, the police can feel free to merrily bring both of them down in a hail of bullets?

Israel takes every precaution ...

Actually, we'll get to your stupid bullshit about that in a moment. First, ...

Ah! Now the mask of civility is starting to slip!

...I'd like to return to justifications for mass-murder. We've seen that it's the Occupation that might be at the root of the continued violence in Palestine.

No! It is the provocations of Hamas against Israel!

And what is the face of this occupation? Israeli settlers attack Palestinians at will. Insulting them, taunting them. Throwing stones at them ...

I see! So only Palestinians are allowed to throw stones! The racist double standard again!

Torching their cars.

Yes. Yes. And those three Israeli boys recently brutally murdered by Hamas had it coming to them I suppose?

Well, it doesn't appear to have been Hamas that killed them. And, anyway, you do realize that your whole shtick is that the Palestinians are only getting what they deserve, don't you?

They are suffering because of Hamas! How many times do I have to tell you that???

So Hamas fighters are in those tanks? Firing that artillery? Bombing Gaza from the sky in those fighter-jets?

Israel is responding to ...

Back to the Occupation; Besides daily insults and attacks from "settlers" in illegal settlements, what else is happening? Demolition of homes:

(Jerusalem) – Israeli forces should immediately end unlawful demolitions of Palestinian homes and other structures in Occupied Palestinian Territory. The demolitions have displaced at least 79 Palestinians since August 19, 2013. Demolitions of homes and other structures that compel Palestinians to leave their communities may amount to the forcible transfer of residents of an occupied territory, which is a war crime.

They didn't have the proper permits.

Abuse, sometimes with deadly consequences, at checkpoints:

At the same time, Palestinian, Israeli and international human rights groups have documented hundreds of cases of abuse by Israeli troops against Palestinians at roadblocks: beatings, shootings, harassment, humiliation and life-threatening delays. Last year, a female Israeli soldier assigned to a Gaza Strip checkpoint was convicted of forcing a Palestinian woman at gunpoint to drink a bottle of cleaning fluid, according to court records. This month, soldiers at the Beit Iba checkpoint, not far from the Hawara checkpoint, ordered a Palestinian to open his violin case and play for them while the lines behind him grew.
At least 83 Palestinians seeking medical care have died during delays at checkpoints, according to the Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group. At the same time, 39 Israeli soldiers and police officers have been killed at checkpoints and roadblocks, according to the Israeli military. A year ago, two Israeli soldiers at a checkpoint south of Jerusalem were shot dead by a Palestinian who carried an automatic rifle rolled in a prayer rug.

Did you notice the part about the killing of those two Israeli soldiers at the end of that piece you idiot?

Yes. Did you notice the part about the sufferings of the Palestinians? Continuing, we have the arbitrary arrests and incarceration of Palestinian children:

Human rights groups reported, however, that Israeli authorities continued to sentence Palestinians according to their age at the time of sentencing even if they were children at the time of the offense, and documented cases in which Israeli authorities arrested children in their homes at night, at gunpoint, questioned them without a family member or a lawyer, and coerced them to sign confessions in Hebrew, which they did not understand.

As of September 31 Israel detained 164 Palestinian children under 18-years-old, and also held 272 Palestinians in administrative detention without charge; 

And the killing of unarmed protesters against land thefts by Israeli settlers:

 In another case, a soldier shot and killed an unarmed resident of Qusra who was protesting against settler incursions on village lands. 

If you read that entire report, you'll see that Hamas is worse!

I'm not holding Israel accountable for the sins of Hamas.

No. You're not even holding Hamas accountable for the sins of Hamas!

The routine practice of torture and beatings in Israeli prisons:

A Palestinian prisoner whose death in Israeli custody fanned violent clashes across the West Bank over the weekend was tortured before he died, the Palestinian Authority has said.
The results of an autopsy conducted in Tel Aviv were revealed at a press conference in Ramallah on Sunday evening after a day of angry protests across the West Bank and Gaza in which dozens were injured.
The findings contradict the Israeli prison service's claim that Arafat Jaradat died on Saturday from a cardiac arrest.
A Palestinian doctor's investigations found that while Jaradat's arteries were clear, the state of his body suggested he had been beaten in the days before his death.

This is sickening. You take the testimony of self-interested terrorists as quoted in the anti-Semitic Guardian as "evidence" of Israeli crimes! You have no idea how ridiculous you look, do you?

Amnesty International:

Torture and other ill-treatment of Palestinians by the General Security Service (GSS) continued to be reported. Methods allegedly used included beatings, sleep deprivation and prolonged periods in stress positions. Israeli domestic law retains “necessity” as a possible justification for torture.

Haaretz.

Traitors!

Beset by an international cabal of anti-Semites and the traitors in your own society?

Of which you are a prime example of the anti-Semitic outsider. I noticed your cowardly dodge when I mentioned the crimes of Hamas against their own people.

It wasn't a dodge. Your point was irrelevant. But fine. I say that Palestinians are justified if they fight back against the crimes of Hamas.

At last! Thank you! Perhaps there's hope for you yet!

Just as I say that Palestinians are justified if they fight back against the crimes of Israel against them.  Especially since it is your argument that no people in the world should be forced to tolerate what Hamas does to you. Or is there a "double standard" at work here? (I haven't even gotten into the effects of the blockade on the economic prospects, the nutritional standards, the health of the Palestinian people.)

Hamas fires rockets indiscriminately. They don't even target their supposed oppressors!

Whereas Israel surgically targets UN shelters where no weapons are hidden? Palestinian hospitals where no weapons are hidden? Precision weaponry and night-vision was used to deliberately target Palestinian boys playing soccer on the beach?

These are tragedies. They are unfortunate. But ...

On the other hand, it seems that you might be off the hook here. Because your precision weaponry isn't really all that precise: 

a margin of error of up to 300 metres, plus a lethal radius of up to 150 metres and an injury radius of 300 metres. So that’s a killing and injury zone of close to half a kilometre from the intended “precise” site of impact – in a territory that is only a few kilometres wide and long. In short, one of the main shells Israel is using in Gaza is completely imprecise.

So, by your logic, your indiscriminate firing of missiles is a war-crime too. It goes back to my example of shooting wildly at a hostage taker. If a crazed gun-man is at a food court in a shopping centre and takes a child and points a gun to his head, you would praise a police-officer for his restraint if he mindlessly took down both the gunman and the child (and anyone standing near them) in a hail of bullets? Are you simple or are you mad?