Saturday, February 12, 2011

The Egyptians' Victory

There's no reason to listen to me about Egypt. I don't have any inside dope and I'm too busy trying to survive to change things. But for what it's worth, here's a couple of thoughts:

1. Getting rid of a dictator who abuses you is one thing. Dealing with anti-democratic politicians, the IMF, the way the United States actively works to subvert democracy, the whole sham of capitalist democracy in general, those are more insidious obstacles to realizing the will of the people.

2. A lot of concern trolls are obsessed with what the end of the Mubarak dictatorship means for Israel. Thinking about it for five minutes, I can't find any reason for non-imperialists to be alarmed. Is Egypt going to abrogate Camp David and attack Israel? No. Is it going to lift its side of the Gaza blockade? Probably. But I fail to see how Gaza being able to eat and Hamas becoming more entrenched genuinely threatens Israel's security. All that's going to happen is that Israel might have to give up seizing the occupied territories and deal seriously with the Palestinians about the terms of viable Palestinian state.

Just look at any of the potential borders of any realistic Palestinian state. Even if Hamas doesn't promise to remove some words from its Charter about destroying Israel, Israel will still be safe. Look at Egypt, Syria, and Jordan. They don't have a prayer of conquering Israel. What is Gaza supposed to be able to do?

An end to Israeli expansionism is not the end of Israel.


Marky Mark said...

This may be a winning result for everyone:

One thing missing from the overall discussion seems to me to be that this democratic revolution is the outcome that many neocons hoped for.

thwap said...

Nice to read an Israeli source that isn't make self-interested anti-democratic statements.

Not that I've been looking. There are doubtless many more. And I agree. Israel's power is such that it is safe. What has changed is the "era of hegemony" as the writer says.

Hopefully this is an end to expansionism, carried out under the heading "peace process."

Sir Francis said...

…this democratic revolution is the outcome that many neocons hoped for.

…since when, exactly? Perhaps I missed Dubya et al.’s strenuous attempts to foster the democratization of Egypt.

I always assumed that the millions in military aid sent to Egypt were earmarked for the maintenance of Mubarak’s thuggish and brutal regime.

thwap said...


Don't know how i missed that throw-away comment about the neocons.

All the usual suspects appeared leery of genuine democracy in Egypt.

Of course, my original reply to Marky Mark was an incoherent mess too.

I'm very distracted these days. Still trying to post for the point of forcing myself to think.

Marky Mark said...

Didn't mean it as a throwaway-follow the discussion here if you like:

thwap said...


I liked your Ha'aretz link. But I can't even be bothered to pretend that bush II and the neo-con scum were ever serious about democracy in the Middle East.

trevorus said...

i always thought taibbi summed the middle east and their ethnocentric woes up quite nicely when he wrote that they are "two groups of racist assholes endlessly killing each other." he was tearing that twat thomas friedman a new cornhole..

thwap said...


While i think that some in the Middle East have embraced racist anti-Jewish drivel, I think it's based on the very real kernel of Israeli imperialism.

The area used to be very tolerant of other "People of The Book" up until the 1950s. Only Palestine had anti-Jewish riots and that was for the local reality of Jewish immigration and eviction of Arab tenants.

I can't make myself believe that the Arab side is mainly motivated by racism.

I can't say that for the expansionists. Dehumanizing your victims is apparently an essential part of the process.

Nomennovum said...

"[T]he whole sham of capitalist democracy ..."

nigga pls ur mental